uga team mailing list archive

["Compiled Kernel" <compiledkernel@xxxxxxxxx>]

In the way of making open sources games, if even not for tons of
money, Basilisk games comes to mind. Their licenses are pretty cheap,
in the way of a game, and I enjoyed easily a few months of play out of
Eschalon Book I. It was limiting in places, but I felt it worthy
enough of purchasing a license.

Dominions 3, is another clear example. I enjoyed playing that game as
well. I also supported by purchase ETQW, UT2003/2004, Penumbra, Doom3,
Q4, Q3, Q2, Vendetta online (payed the monthlies for a while), Regnum
(paid for premo content a couple of times), Tribes 2 (via loki games),
and so forth and so forth.

Yes there is a market for it, you just have to know how to twist it.

Just as likely is it to dev free games. Nexuiz is a clear example. I
love the game. Play it by the tons. Open Arena as well. Wesnoth like
crazy (Still waiting for my 1 on 1 with AI, who hasnt tried to take me
yet, and Ill go a round with anyone here too that wants a shot at me
as well).

So , free or not, there is a clear vantage out there, just have to
find a way to get it to the masses.


On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 5:01 PM, Jason <kane.michael.john@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> There seems to be good arguments being made.
>
> The only issue is with the theory that younger people are more motivated
> than older people, posted in the first message, As it seems one is being
> asked to believe that there are no game, or other developers over the age of
> twenty five.
>
> As for motivation, it can come in many forms. There is monetary motivation,
> or the motivation of simply knowing that many people enjoy ones work which
> one can choose to make available at no cost.
>
> Further on the topic of motivation one can use the UGA as a prime example,
> of something that was the idea of one or many people, and put into action
> without any thought of monetary gains, Which people are still motivated work
> on.
>
> At the end of it all I do not see why one could not develop a fully
> opensource based game, and still make money, or at lease make the games
> Linux compatiable.
>
> On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Compiled Kernel <compiledkernel@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>>
>> Ok, Im going to try to digest this bit in pieces, slowly and by as
>> clear a means possible.
>>
>> Firstly, by no means do I represent as a whole the vision of the
>> gaming community. Yes, ok, I admit at times I am very Stallman droid
>> in nature. Free gaming is just that, free gaming. I think the intent
>> however as a whole is not for the freedom of games, but more over the
>> open nature of such games. I believe the GPL will ultimately safe the
>> PC gaming industry. An industry mind you that right now, at least on
>> the MSFT side of things is failing quite miserably. Its almost ironic
>> that as Wine finally comes into its own right , the Windows gaming
>> world is on its way out. Now sure, I can make all the assumptions
>> about console gaming and what its doing blah blah blah (there are
>> thousands of arguments to this affect for sure), so im not going to go
>> near that at all.
>>
>> I think its not that OSS games take so long to mature, its more of a
>> matter of how much work goes into them. For sure when a proprietary
>> developer like ID goes head long into development of a game, they do
>> their best (at least as far as I can see) to include the Linux gaming
>> model into the equation. Atari Games, not so much, as we have seen via
>> Icculus' great displeasure.
>>
>> I think smaller groups of developers work because of the unified ideal
>> concept. Smaller groups tend to keep the unified thought flow going in
>> the direction the others think in. Larger groups of developers
>> however, create too many varying directions. In the end you end up
>> with a game title that has 20 different directions, and only a very
>> loosely based idea of how its played. So yes, Im certainly in favor of
>> smaller groupings of developers, over a larger set of people.
>>
>> Traditional methods for learning how to code, and develop software is
>> a paramount hill that most anyone isnt capable of understanding. And
>> surely yes, after such a long and drawn process, its concievable that
>> the individual themselves may have become so jaded that they probably
>> wouldnt want to develop such software. Generally speaking this rule
>> applies to software development as a whole, not just gaming. What the
>> industry needs is a set of Visionaries that are actually capable of
>> getting the idea down. Finding someone to code you the interfaces,
>> models, and such isnt all that hard (if you have VC, and the
>> motivation to do so, and those around you share the same idea, then
>> your pretty much set). Do we need more? No. We need devs who are
>> already out there, that already develop software to start developing
>> in our arena. The sad thing about it is, that many devs sign
>> non-disclosure aggreements , etc. EA is merciless about stuff like
>> this, and most game dev houses arent any different. There are
>> exceptions, but not many.
>>
>> Honestly I think the Indie gaming development stance period is the way
>> to go. Develop for all platforms. Do not develop for windows only to
>> bolster your linux gaming model on going forward. All platforms should
>> benefit equally, not using one to bolster another. Really I see PC
>> gaming going GPL and Indie, and its not far away.
>>
>> My two cents so far, will probably be more later.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 12:44 PM, Chase Adams <chase@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>> > Hey all, I guess I'm on a roll here. I was reading Abras' commentary on
>> > the
>> > state of Linux gaming
>> > (http://gaming.gwos.org/doku.php/editorial:lgreality)
>> > -- its quite a good article. It got me thinking -- I've had a "plan" for
>> > linux gaming for some years now and never really had the chance to tell
>> > anyone.
>> >
>> > Where do I start... People have tried to apply existing models to Linux,
>> > and
>> > they largely haven't worked. Linux users don't like buying stuff, and
>> > OSS
>> > games take a long long time to become mature enough to appreciate.
>> >
>> > Based on that, the only real answer is to figure out something that
>> > isn't
>> > traditional, and try that out. I've personally come to center my focus
>> > on
>> > optimizing the process of making games, so here are my thoughts on
>> > that...
>> >
>> > First of all, in what little project leadership experience I had before
>> > MirthKit, I learned that individuals are more productive in smaller
>> > groups
>> > -- and that's for a variety of reasons. People chat to each other less,
>> > but
>> > more importantly, its easier to for everyone to keep everyone else
>> > informed
>> > about what's going on.
>> >
>> > That might not seem like a big deal, but I'd bet you that an individual
>> > working alone is about twice as productive as one working in a group of
>> > 7
>> > people -- this especially applies programmers. Thus, assuming an
>> > individual
>> > can scrape together all of the aspects of a game -- programming, design,
>> > content creation -- 7 people working independently will overall produce
>> > games twice as quickly compared to everyone working in a group. -- Those
>> > games will individually progress slower, and won't be as high quality
>> > (because each individual's specialties are only being put toward one
>> > game),
>> > but the overall rate will be much higher. Despite this, I think most
>> > developers won't feel comfortable working alone, so I think the ideal
>> > group
>> > size is two: one artist and one programmer.
>> >
>> > Second, its a fact that younger people are more motivated than older
>> > people.
>> > The problem is that younger people need to learn a crap load of stuff
>> > before
>> > they can make games. I bet you there are a 100 million kids out there
>> > who
>> > proclaim "I want to make games" but then figure out that its hard as
>> > shit
>> > and never go through with it. Even out of the people who are motivated
>> > to
>> > learn how to program, it takes literally about four years to learn
>> > enough to
>> > make *your first game*. That needs to change, because after four years,
>> > people have all but lost their spark. Its important that real game
>> > development becomes accessible enough that these people can start making
>> > games in under a year after starting to learn. If that can happen, these
>> > particular people will make a lot of games, but also, they will have
>> > accomplishment and feel good enough to actually continue making games
>> > (as
>> > opposed to getting burnt out).
>> >
>> > Between those two ideas, I think if they are carried through well
>> > enough,
>> > that they will present enough of an edge to produce games better. I
>> > think
>> > that catering to the Windows market while having games work in Linux
>> > also
>> > will be the best option, because it will drastically improve the
>> > sustainability of the developers, while at the very least making Linux
>> > credible as a game platform. -- On a side note, Linux already has a
>> > killer
>> > app -- it costs nothing -- that's why most people switch to it, and
>> > ultimately, I imagine it will slowly but surely take over the worlds'
>> > desktops because of that fact.
>> >
>> > Also, I'd like to simply do a little spiel about MirthKit, since that's
>> > the
>> > implementation of my plan. The way I envision it, me/my company will act
>> > as
>> > a shepard for the app. I've considered making it open source, but its
>> > simply
>> > critical to my plan that it is kept both unified and funded -- as Ubuntu
>> > and
>> > Firefox have demonstrated, marketing is damn important for success even
>> > for
>> > OSS and marketing costs money. As it is, MirthKit's service charges are
>> > absolutely minuscule, so we are by no means shooting for profit from
>> > games
>> > sold through MirthKit. As a way of making MirthKit's developers/user get
>> > more power in its use, I'm considering setting up some kind of community
>> > council to help steer.
>> >
>> > Hmmm ... I've run out of blabber. Tell me what you think. :)
>> >
>> > -Chase
>> >
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