mvhub-dev team mailing list archive

[Dan MacNeil <dan@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

(10:06:51 AM) Dan MacNeil: Good evening
(10:07:03 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hi Dan
(10:07:21 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Did you take a look at my PPA?
(10:07:44 AM) Dan MacNeil: No, I'm just turned on the computer
(10:07:48 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ok
(10:07:59 AM) Dan MacNeil: perhaps I should look at your PPA now ?
(10:08:17 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: What I've done right now is, I'm 
copied mv_* scripts in app-mvhub/project-tools/bin/ into a new branch
(10:08:25 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: 
https://launchpad.net/~emaadmanzoor/+archive/mvhub-devpkg
(10:08:57 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Don't install it yet, it's just a 
proof of concept of building from a branch
(10:09:24 AM) Dan MacNeil: ok
(10:10:26 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: I was confused about how you want the 
developer workflow to be after packaging
(10:10:36 AM) Dan MacNeil: ok
(10:11:25 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Options are:
1. mv_* scripts are in a separate branch. So developers modifying/adding 
new scripts will have to merge them into this new branch, and then the 
new mvhub-dev package gets built.
(10:11:44 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: 2. We modify the mvhub trunk 
directory structure
(10:12:29 AM) Dan MacNeil: modifying a directory structure is easier in 
bzr than git, svn etc, not too hard at all actually
(10:12:45 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ok..
(10:13:00 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: But won't it change how existing 
developers are working?
(10:13:09 AM) Dan MacNeil: They will adjust
(10:13:18 AM) Dan MacNeil: --it won't take much effort
(10:13:31 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ok..
(10:13:58 AM) Dan MacNeil: right now not many people are typing 
/var/www/mvhub$USER/link-to-live-code/app-mvhub/project-tools/bin/mv_prove
(10:13:58 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: There's a directive for Launchpad 
recipes called "nest-part" where I can pull in an entire folder from 
another branch.
(10:14:03 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ok..
(10:14:15 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: right.. :-)

(10:14:35 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: But not just the developer scripts, 
the rest of the structure will have to be changed too right?
(10:15:09 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: nest-part works fine for top level 
directories in the branch, but I can't use it to pull deeper directories
(10:16:14 AM) Dan MacNeil: app-mvhub/setup/  is theoretically the start 
of a directory to build a package
(10:17:10 AM) Dan MacNeil: It would be fine to put dev-mvhub at the same 
level as app-mvhub and lib-mvhub
(10:17:20 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ok..
(10:17:46 AM) Dan MacNeil: a big advantage would be that paths could be set
(10:18:00 AM) Dan MacNeil: to use /usr/bin/mv_* first
(10:18:06 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ok..
(10:18:19 AM) Dan MacNeil: and then after somebody types cdw to use the 
stuff in the project directory
(10:19:16 AM) Dan MacNeil: the sourcing / alias stuff will be hard to do 
in a way that complies with debian packaging guidelines
(10:19:56 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: I'm not sure how the developer 
workflow is right now, can you go over it with me? cdw goes to which 
directory exactly?
(10:20:06 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: I get that it sets env_vars
(10:20:24 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: link-to-live-code is?
(10:20:36 AM) Dan MacNeil: if you have a terminal to brave open try:
(10:20:45 AM) Dan MacNeil:
      alias  | grep cdw
(10:21:11 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ok
(10:21:21 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: oh i was looking at the mvhub_aliases 
file
(10:21:26 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: mv_aliases
(10:21:40 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: same thing right?
(10:21:45 AM) Dan MacNeil: same thing yep
(10:22:21 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: so under link-to-live-code we will have..
(10:22:30 AM) Dan MacNeil: cat /etc/bash.bashrc  | tail -n 3
(10:23:12 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Wait ill just get a shell on brave, 
just a minute
(10:24:00 AM) Dan MacNeil: sure take your time, I can get more coffee 
and say a quick hi to the cafe staff
(10:26:47 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: I've to switch network interfaces, brb
(10:33:06 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ok..
(10:36:16 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: got it..
(10:37:07 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: I had a doubt about the project itself:
(10:37:29 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: "Your task would be to create script 
to build a Debian package of our developer tools. Probably /usr/bin/mv_* 
and /usr/sbin/* /usr/share/doc/mvhub/ would be enough."
(10:39:29 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: I understood this I think; next steps 
would be to move app-mvhub/project-tools/bin/mv_* to a new mvhub-dev 
directory in lp:mvhub, and then change my recipe to build a package from 
the scripts there.
(10:40:07 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: I also need to change find a way to 
figure out the dependencies of the perl scripts and add them to the 
package control file
(10:40:17 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: "The most important functionality 
would be to allow our development environment to be setup on an recent 
flavor of ubuntu or debian and once it was setup, to push/pull 
branch/merge to from launchpad.net"
(10:40:55 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: What more should the package do after 
installing the scripts?
(10:41:36 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Also, is this right: you eventually 
want developers and users of mvhub to just install the packages and get 
stared, rather than checking out the source from the trunk.
(10:41:47 AM) Dan MacNeil: let me look at project-tools to see what else 
is there...
(10:43:26 AM) Dan MacNeil: to answer your last question, 90% yes.
(10:44:28 AM) Dan MacNeil: creating a new development setup should take 
 5-10 minutes for somebody with basic debian/ubuntu skills
(10:45:17 AM) Dan MacNeil: Eventually they will have to create branches 
on their own to do development
(10:45:31 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hmm ok...
(10:45:56 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Hmm, but after mvhub-dev is done 
being packaged, it will eventually depend on the mvhub package. So it's 
kind of useless until the entire app is packaged. Devs will have to 
checkout the entire trunk anyways.
(10:46:23 AM) Dan MacNeil: hmmm,
(10:47:51 AM) Dan MacNeil: well maybe we don't need to package more than 
mv_update_development and ...
(10:48:30 AM) Dan MacNeil: app-mvhub/doc/checklists/install_mvhub.txt
(10:48:45 AM) Dan MacNeil: 
app-mvhub/doc/checklists/setup_developer_on_brave.txt
(10:48:55 AM) Dan MacNeil: the later two translated to scripts
(10:49:10 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ok..
(10:49:20 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: So the developer first installs this 
package
(10:49:27 AM) Dan MacNeil: yes
(10:49:27 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Then runs the setup scripts
(10:49:30 AM) Dan MacNeil: yes
(10:49:52 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: These scripts would make a new 
launchpad branch?
(10:50:06 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: should*
(10:50:09 AM) Dan MacNeil: the install_mvhub.txt maybe largely taken 
care of by the package scripts
(10:50:17 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hmm ok..
(10:50:38 AM) Dan MacNeil: I don't know if they should be another branch 
or not,  I'm inclined not but am very open to reason
(10:51:22 AM) Dan MacNeil: I'm not sure we need to build on launchpad 
either.
(10:51:28 AM) Dan MacNeil: at least not at first.
(10:51:28 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hmm..
(10:51:38 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ok..
(10:51:51 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: But that's how all developers will 
need to work with mvhub right..
(10:51:55 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ?
(10:52:04 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: make a branch and hack, then merge 
with trunk..
(10:52:20 AM) Dan MacNeil: But the .deb file doesn't have to be built on 
launchpad
(10:52:29 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ok hmm..
(10:52:48 AM) Dan MacNeil: From being on the launchpad-users list it 
seems like sometimes it takes 12 hours for a package to be build / fail 
to build ...
(10:52:58 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ok..
(10:53:05 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Hmm mine took 10 minutes the first time..
(10:53:11 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: But you're allowed only 5 builds a day..
(10:53:37 AM) Dan MacNeil: I think it would be a very nice extra, but 
not essential
(10:53:45 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: In a case where you desperately need 
a package built, it can be build locally and uploaded to the ppa
(10:54:06 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: But it's really convenient with 
launchpad watching your branch code and building if/when there are any 
changes
(10:54:27 AM) Dan MacNeil: Oh right, the ppa isn't as trusted as the 
main distro...
(10:54:43 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: true..
(10:55:39 AM) Dan MacNeil: ok we should make packages available out of 
the official https;//launchpad/mvhub URL
(10:56:12 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hmm eventually
(10:56:20 AM) Dan MacNeil:
https://launchpad.net/~mvhub-commit
(10:56:28 AM) Dan MacNeil:
(10:56:32 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ok..
(10:56:35 AM) Dan MacNeil: apply to join that group
(10:56:40 AM) Dan MacNeil: if you please
(10:56:47 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: sure
(10:57:21 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: So you eventually want to merge the 
packaging directory into the main mvhub trunk?
(10:57:28 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Or keep a separate packaging branch?
(10:57:43 AM) Dan MacNeil: Well, let us think of the pros and cons of 
each approach...
(10:58:17 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: putting packaging into the main trunk 
puts a directory that most devs will never need
(10:58:47 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: not much in terms of kilobytes but 
still..
(10:58:58 AM) Dan MacNeil: trunk::find . -name *.pm | wc -l
31

(10:59:26 AM) Dan MacNeil: Most devs won't need more than 10% of the 
library files either :->
(10:59:39 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Yeah that too!
(11:00:03 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: So there should be another lib 
package too right..
(11:00:11 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: tests too..
(11:00:35 AM) Dan MacNeil: It is possible / common to build multiple 
.debs from a single .src
(11:01:09 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Hmm yeah..most of what I've read 
shies away from that process..
(11:01:15 AM) Dan MacNeil: one branch / src file means that there is no 
duplication
(11:01:34 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ok..
(11:01:55 AM) Dan MacNeil: It also means that multiple packages don't 
have to be installed
(11:02:31 AM) Dan MacNeil: and that with careful setting of paths ,you 
don't need root to work on packaging / setup
(11:02:52 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: multiple packages don't have to be 
installed?
(11:03:17 AM) Dan MacNeil: mvhub-dev and mvhub-lib and mvhub-test
(11:03:35 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ok..
(11:03:53 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: I thought we wanted to give people 
the option of picking their packages..
(11:03:54 AM) Dan MacNeil: farily often (ok at least twice) somebody 
will noitce a little bug in an mv_* script and want to fix it quickly
(11:04:28 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hmm..
(11:04:54 AM) Dan MacNeil: Most recently, mv_clean wasn't removing emacs 
backup files
(11:05:27 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hmm ok..
(11:05:40 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: That's another thing, so if a dev has 
installed mvhub-dev
(11:05:46 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: and then fixed a bug
(11:06:04 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: to actually merge that fix, he'll 
have to branch mvhub again?
(11:06:31 AM) Dan MacNeil: yes and submit a merge request to lp:mvhub
(11:07:28 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: It's looks like mvhub developers will 
need to branch the entire trunk at some point..
(11:08:12 AM) Dan MacNeil: if
/var/www/mvhub/$USER/link-to-live-code/mvhub-dev/usr/bin/

is in $PATH with higher precedence than /usr/bin/ everything should just 
work

(11:08:30 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ok..
(11:08:44 AM) Dan MacNeil: yes
after setup
(11:08:47 AM) Dan MacNeil: cdw
(11:08:59 AM) Dan MacNeil: bzr branch lp:mvhub my_new_feature_branch
(11:09:04 AM) Dan MacNeil: mv_set_active
(11:09:46 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: When they do the branch, they'll have 
the same scripts that the package installed again
(11:10:04 AM) Dan MacNeil: yes
(11:10:21 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hmm so they can patch them easily..
(11:12:50 AM) Dan MacNeil: (deleted thoughts about setup on accademic 
server for people w/o root)
(11:13:16 AM) Dan MacNeil: current scope is personal development machine
(11:14:34 AM) Dan MacNeil: Another random note, it would be good to 
eyeball the debian web-apps policy manual
(11:14:57 AM) Dan MacNeil: I'm pretty sure modifyng /etc/hosts is a bit 
naughty
(11:16:00 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Yeah I've got that going
(11:16:10 AM) Dan MacNeil: after eyeballing policy manual, posting to 
the web-apps list asking for guidence...
(11:16:16 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ok..
(11:16:58 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hmm so we wouldn't have stuff 
installed in var/www/mvhub
(11:17:09 AM) Dan MacNeil: There is another guy Jeff Bonham who is 
working for love on database independence
(11:17:40 AM) Dan MacNeil: using sqlite instead of postgresql 
dramatically simplifys setup
(11:17:45 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ok..
(11:18:31 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: mvhub doesnt work with sqlite right now?
(11:19:02 AM) Dan MacNeil: Some of the tests create a temporary sqlite db
(11:19:07 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hmm..
(11:19:10 AM) Dan MacNeil: the live site runs on postgresql
(11:20:10 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: wouldn't something break when the 
final mvhub app is not in var/www/mvhub?
(11:21:15 AM) Dan MacNeil: The path to the database file would be in the 
conf file
(11:23:52 AM) Dan MacNeil: many maybe most of the paths are relative and 
calculated from a configurable base
(11:24:17 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hmm ok..
(11:25:02 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: It'll be a long while before I look 
at packaging mvhub entirely..
(11:26:39 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Right now, where do I move on from 
installing the mv_ scripts into /usr/bin, pulling in package 
dependencies and perl modules
(11:26:39 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ?
(11:27:30 AM) Dan MacNeil: that should keep you busy until thursday
(11:27:39 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Yeah..
(11:28:15 AM) Dan MacNeil: but implementing the checklists as script 
would be next
(11:28:57 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hmm and then moving them in with the 
other dev scripts?
(11:29:35 AM) Dan MacNeil: back in a sec...
(11:31:15 AM) Dan MacNeil: well, most of the dev scripts aren't needed 
unless you are working on a branch
(11:31:33 AM) Dan MacNeil: mv_install # new
(11:31:50 AM) Dan MacNeil: mv_setup_developer # new
(11:32:00 AM) Dan MacNeil: mv_update_developer
(11:32:26 AM) Dan MacNeil: mv_cdw # renamed  maybe not possible as a 
script instead of an alias
(11:32:49 AM) Dan MacNeil: those are all the things that off the top of 
my head need to be in /usr/bin/
(11:33:17 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hmm these are used by you to setup 
new devs right?
(11:33:23 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hmm these are used by you to setup 
new devs right?
(11:33:30 AM) Dan MacNeil: yes
(11:34:36 AM) Dan MacNeil: some other stuff in app-mvhub/project tools 
will be needed in /usr/share/doc/mvhub
(11:34:47 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ok..
(11:35:15 AM) Dan MacNeil: it will be hard to build a test database 
without test data
(11:36:20 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Alright for now, until Thursday, I'll 
try to do what I can from mvhub_install, and get it running on this ppa, 
installable and everything.
(11:37:08 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: If I can do that, that'll finish off 
what I'd scheduled to finish by July 20; I think I stretched my schedule 
a bit too much..
(11:37:58 AM) Dan MacNeil: We've changed the spec a bit  (which you 
should point out in the context of hitting milestones)
(11:38:30 AM) Dan MacNeil: generally, you should shoot for getting lots 
of small bits merged rather than one big bang
(11:38:38 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ok.hmm..
(11:38:48 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Right..
(11:39:14 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: I'll put in the checklists -> scripts 
task..
(11:39:47 AM) Dan MacNeil: to answer your 2nd email question , yes all 
the docs can / should move to the wiki except the top level README]
(11:40:37 AM) Dan MacNeil: That is scope creep, but it will give you a 
chance to make a bunch of easy merge requests and force you read over 
the docs
(11:41:34 AM) Dan MacNeil: Generally, I'm happier not meeting the 
original spec if that means we've figured out what we really need to do
(11:41:45 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hmm yeah..
(11:41:49 AM) Dan MacNeil: As long as you are looking busy :->
(11:41:57 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Not completely figured out yet..
(11:42:05 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: I'll take it step by step..
(11:42:44 AM) Dan MacNeil: Are you free friday at this time, it might 
nake sense to have you on the meeting with Jeff to talk about database 
independence / sqlite setup ?
(11:43:01 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Yes I'm free then
(11:43:09 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: same time
(11:43:58 AM) Dan MacNeil: yes
(11:44:04 AM) Dan MacNeil: It isn't 100% confirmed
(11:44:10 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ok..
(11:44:12 AM) Dan MacNeil: Do you have an AOL account ?
(11:44:16 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: No..
(11:44:32 AM) Dan MacNeil: or do you know if it is possible to have 
multiple people on a gchat ?
(11:44:35 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: It'll make things a lot easier if 
sqlite works out..
(11:44:47 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hmm ill just check
(11:45:19 AM) Dan MacNeil: If we were studly we'd have a freenode 
channel... :-<
(11:45:38 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: yeah how come you don't have one?
(11:45:43 AM) Dan MacNeil: I'm looking back over the transcript to be 
sure I've answered all your questions
(11:45:48 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ok..
(11:45:54 AM) Dan MacNeil: I never followed up on our application
(11:46:08 AM) Dan MacNeil: 90% of developers have been local to Lowell
(11:46:16 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hmm..
(11:46:30 AM) Dan MacNeil: people between jobs , newly grads on OPT
(11:46:39 AM) Dan MacNeil: cs.uml.edu CS studens..
(11:46:45 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hmm..
(11:47:05 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Where are your remote devs from?
(11:48:00 AM) Dan MacNeil: right now New Palz NY USA,  ? in Turkey and 
yourself
(11:48:32 AM) Dan MacNeil: Sean lives in next town over, Himibindu lives 
in Lowell but she has a baby so she prefers to be remote
(11:48:45 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hmm just 2 international devs..
(11:48:58 AM) Dan MacNeil: yep, our 2nd and third
(11:49:06 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: You'll be applying for gsoc next year 
too right?
(11:49:10 AM) Dan MacNeil: yes
(11:49:32 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Hope you make it..
(11:50:27 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: More people need to get into 
packaging..it's not as mainstream a FOSS task as say Python coding or 
something..
(11:50:31 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: nice experience..
(11:51:00 AM) Dan MacNeil: me too
(11:51:25 AM) Dan MacNeil: yeah the reason mysql  is more popular than 
postgresql is because back in the day, it was much, much easier to install
(11:52:13 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hmm yeah it was the first db I used..
(11:52:18 AM) Dan MacNeil: hey you do know that some of the perl 
libraries are pulled in via CPANPLUS ?
(11:52:26 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: No..
(11:52:54 AM) Dan MacNeil: ok now you do :-<
(11:53:05 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hmm I was planning to package the 
perl modules as debs
(11:53:16 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: and dump them into the ppa, as 
dependencies..
(11:53:35 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: you don't really need to be using the 
bleeding edge version of these modules right?
(11:54:29 AM) Dan MacNeil: Correct, We don't need to be using the 
bleeding edge versions
(11:55:21 AM) Dan MacNeil: the right way (trademark) is to get the 
packed libraries into debian
(11:55:39 AM) Dan MacNeil: which doesn't look hard, just time consuming
(11:55:52 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hmm..
(11:55:55 AM) Dan MacNeil: there is a packaging group that seems super 
helpful on their list
(11:56:05 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: which one?
(11:56:16 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: cpanplus has something called 
cpan2dist, nice..
(11:56:31 AM) Dan MacNeil: I think also dhmake perl
(11:56:38 AM) Dan MacNeil: This is again serious scope creep
(11:56:54 AM) Dan MacNeil: maybe for now make them PPA
(11:57:13 AM) Dan MacNeil: and leave getting them into debian as a 
seperate project
(11:57:24 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: lol phew..
(11:59:03 AM) Dan MacNeil: It is a serious naugthy thing to imbed 
libraries in your project's package (as we do with CGI::FormBuilder
(11:59:35 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: yeah?
(11:59:42 AM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: What's the right way then?
(12:00:08 PM) Dan MacNeil: create a seperate project , build a seperate 
package
(12:00:55 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hmm..
(12:01:06 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: and install that as a lib?
(12:01:07 PM) Dan MacNeil: Sometimes I need to be reminded that ugly and 
working is better than pretty and not finished
(12:01:47 PM) Dan MacNeil: yes the lib package would be a dependency of 
your package

(12:03:48 PM) Dan MacNeil: DBIx::XHTML_Table       undef
IPC::System::Simple     undef
HTML::Strip             undef
Devel::NYTProf          undef
Parse::AccessLogEntry   undef
Set::Array              undef
SQL::Library            undef
Test::HTML::Lint        undef
Test::WWW::Mechanize    undef
Text::xSV               undef
URI::Escape             undef
WWW::Mechanize		undef

(12:04:15 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: What are these?
(12:04:19 PM) Dan MacNeil: From:

   grep '::' lib-mvhub/lib/Bundle/MVHub.pm
(12:04:35 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ok..
(12:04:48 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: These are your libs..
(12:05:01 PM) Dan MacNeil: these are libraries we grab from CPAN because 
there is no debian package
(12:05:29 PM) Dan MacNeil: or was none in debian etch
(12:05:38 PM) Dan MacNeil: some are in ubuntu 10.4 now
(12:05:50 PM) Dan MacNeil: our targets are ubuntu 10.4 and 11.10
(12:05:55 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: alright..
(12:05:57 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hmm nice..
(12:06:55 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ok i just read that it's recommended 
to keep the source tarball and the debian directory separate..
(12:07:12 PM) Dan MacNeil: I think we are a native package
(12:07:35 PM) Dan MacNeil: so maybe not something_original.tgz
(12:07:50 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: No we're non native I think..
(12:08:04 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: examples of native: lintian, dpkg
(12:08:14 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: I think all webapps are non-native...
(12:09:02 PM) Dan MacNeil: I am often wrong , but anything who's first 
package / primary distribution method is debian is native
(12:09:17 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: oh..
(12:09:45 PM) Dan MacNeil: check me though...
(12:09:48 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: "You should only use a native Debian 
package when it is clear that the  package would only ever be of use in 
Debian. Even if the software is  currently only available in Debian, if 
someone could reasonably use the  software on another distribution or on 
another operating system, then  the package should be non-native." - 
http://wiki.debian.org/DebianMentorsFaq#HowdoImakemyfirstpackage.3F
(12:10:21 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: I understood from this that if it can 
run somewhere else it's non native..
(12:10:49 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: "...only ever be of *use*..."
(12:11:03 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Our package would be of use anywhere!
(12:11:09 PM) Dan MacNeil: right you are
(12:11:40 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: They recommend separating the 
packaging because the packagers and upstream devs work separately..
(12:11:50 PM) Dan MacNeil: that makes sense
(12:12:09 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Does that mean a separate branch for 
the "debian" directory?
(12:12:33 PM) Dan MacNeil: no, I don't think so
(12:12:33 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: mvhub-packaging or something
(12:12:44 PM) Dan MacNeil: I think most of that would be generated
(12:13:52 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: generated?
(12:14:25 PM) Dan MacNeil: copy files to $BASE_DIR/dev/pkg/
(12:14:39 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: yeah true..
(12:14:51 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: But what i was thinking was..
(12:14:59 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: If we had a separate branch for packaging
(12:15:18 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: I could work on that for the 
packaging only, build on it..
(12:15:49 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: the launchpad recipe would handle 
pulling in the debian dir and the code together and buillding the packge
(12:16:31 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: but everytime a maintainer wants to 
do a packaging-specific task, like adding an entry to the changelog, he 
she can checkout only the packaging branch
(12:17:30 PM) Dan MacNeil: your call, it is more important for you to 
own this than it is for me ( who knows less of the details) to be 
comfortable
(12:18:19 PM) Dan MacNeil: I think it is handier to have everything in 
one place... esp in regard to quick fixes for things like 
mv_update_development
(12:18:32 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Yeah that's how I'm working right now..
(12:19:21 PM) Dan MacNeil: Another consideration is that a lot of the 
MVHub::Setup code is shared by mv_update_development mv_update_staging 
mv_update_production
(12:19:49 PM) Dan MacNeil: Setup.pm would presumably go in your dev 
package...?
(12:20:18 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Yeah..
(12:20:29 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: I'll make a deb of the pm..
(12:20:35 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: add it as a dependency
(12:21:04 PM) Dan MacNeil: It is an internal library , useless for 
anything but setting up MVhub...
(12:21:18 PM) Dan MacNeil: I'd be inclined to keep it in the mvhub-dev 
package
(12:21:21 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hmm that's my next task actually, 
checking out the perl scripts' dependencies..
(12:21:55 PM) Dan MacNeil: the mv_* scripts ?
(12:21:57 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ok, in that case I copy the pm 
to../usr/share/perl or some place..
(12:22:01 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ya..
(12:22:11 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: they have a lot of "use <abc>"
(12:22:46 PM) Dan MacNeil: the .pm files should go where the packaging 
guidelines say they should go
(12:22:53 PM) Dan MacNeil: there are two sets of dependences
(12:23:00 PM) Dan MacNeil: maybe (3)
(12:23:16 PM) Dan MacNeil: (1) for the mv_* scripts esp mv_update_*
(12:23:49 PM) Dan MacNeil: (2) so when a branch is checked out the 
developer can have a usible website
(12:24:29 PM) Dan MacNeil: (3) for some of the unit tests / integration 
tests  in lib-mvhub/t/
(12:24:34 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hmm..
(12:24:49 PM) Dan MacNeil: (3a) / profiling / code coverage tools 
(specific  mv_*)
(12:26:48 PM) Dan MacNeil: for mv_profile and mv_cover , you can modify 
them to die and a graceful and helpful way if the NTY:Profile and 
Devel::Cover libraries aren't present
(12:28:24 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hmmm..
(12:28:26 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Yeah..
(12:30:42 PM) Dan MacNeil: all this is a bit overwhelming...
(12:30:49 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: yes :->
(12:31:02 PM) Dan MacNeil: I think there are a bunch of bite sized pieces
(12:31:14 PM) Dan MacNeil: the docs --> wiki is dead easy
(12:31:20 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: lol yes
(12:32:39 PM) Dan MacNeil: debconf for the .ssh/ and .bazaar stuff 
(prompt for launchpad id , prompt for ssh pass phrase & generate 
id_rsa_launchpad.* )
(12:33:08 PM) Dan MacNeil: ...basically scriptifying the install 
software / setup checklists
(12:33:20 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: oh..
(12:33:28 PM) Dan MacNeil: each of those ____ step one ____ step two 
stuff is a small bite
(12:33:32 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: hmm so I can't assume the dev has 
setup a laundhpad account
(12:33:33 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ?
(12:33:57 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: That was another question I had, what 
assumptions can I make?
(12:34:17 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: One i guess is the dev has apache 
etc. installed and configured to work
(12:35:25 PM) Dan MacNeil: apache and (for now) postgresql should be 
dependencies of package
(12:35:40 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ok
(12:36:16 PM) Dan MacNeil: The "typical" developer is an undergrad or 
unemployed corporate MS visual basic GUI monkey
(12:36:27 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: lol alright..
(12:37:42 PM) Dan MacNeil: the install target is somebody's laptop 
running 11.10 or 10.4
(12:37:46 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: So part of the development setup 
needs to be as steps on a wiki
(12:38:08 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: and part as debconf and the package stuff
(12:38:49 PM) Dan MacNeil: it shouldn't be too hard to include apache2 
as dependency , let apt* install it and then drop mvhub.conf  and 
mvhub.data in /etc/apache2/sites-avaliable
(12:38:52 PM) Dan MacNeil: but yeah...
(12:39:07 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: ok that's doable..
(12:39:14 PM) Dan MacNeil: bits of the existing install_mvhub.txt that 
aren't scriptified should go on the wiki
(12:39:49 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Hmm ok I need some time to distill 
all this info and plan things out
(12:40:01 PM) Dan MacNeil: sure,
(12:40:04 PM) Dan MacNeil: think small bites
(12:40:06 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: And dinner
(12:40:11 PM) Dan MacNeil: ah
(12:40:12 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Yes small bites :-)
(12:41:03 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: I'll get back to you on Thursday with 
some concrete milestones
(12:41:08 PM) Dan MacNeil: any reason for me not to post chat log to dev 
listserv ?
(12:41:12 PM) Dan MacNeil: sounds good
(12:41:17 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: No chat log is good
(12:41:24 PM) Dan MacNeil: ok talk to you thursday
(12:41:37 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Ok, thanks for your time Dan, cleared 
a lot of things up!
(12:41:45 PM) Dan MacNeil: thanks for your work !
(12:41:51 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: But I might need some more direction 
on Thursday
(12:42:16 PM) Dan MacNeil: sure, I am shallow, insecure and easily 
flattered so that will be good for me
(12:42:27 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: :->
(12:42:36 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Good morning
(12:42:43 PM) Emaad Ahmed Manzoor: Bye..
(12:42:46 PM) Dan MacNeil: ""