modred team mailing list archive

[Scott Lawrence <bytbox@xxxxxxxxx>]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Frederic Koehler <fkfire@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 23:21:28 -0500
Subject: Re: [Modred] Concept stuff
To: Scott Lawrence <bytbox@xxxxxxxxx>

 * This is sort-of a solution (while obviously less-than-optimal security,
some grid-computing stuff does this, like BOINC), however, it turns out that
this may require custom validation methods - for example, it's normal for
floating point values to be different on different computers, and the same
could apply for other computations.
 * A malicious client would only need to misbehave on certain problems that
a malicious user could designate (or recognize obvious fake programs),
allowing the fake program test to work.
    - A better idea would be to randomly reduplicate some computations many
times - the malicious client wouldn't notice anything, but could easily be
singled out

  * Thirdly is mostly the same thing I wrote before - only computations that
are said to be totally unimportant privacy wise could benefit from
client-side computing.

So I really think that client-side computation is only a good idea for a
small subset of problems (like the type that there already exist massive
grid computing solutions for, like SETI@HOME)

On Sun, Dec 27, 2009 at 10:57 PM, Scott Lawrence <bytbox@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> I want clients to be used for computation, and I want maximum
> privacy+security given that restriction.  Some ideas:
>
> With a large network, two computers can perform the same computation.
> Furthermore, a smart modred hub can give fake problems to clients,
> just to make sure that they're operating correctly.  A client that
> isn't operating correctly gets cut. (No second chances! A program
> could exploit that!)
>
> If a user specifies a certain bit of data (SSN, for instance) as
> highly sensitive, modred should know not to hand off that computation
> to a client. (If it does by accident, it certainly should never hand
> off the data.) privacy++
>
> In all cases, computations should be anonymous. privacy++
>
> Other ideas?
>
>
> On 12/27/09, Frederic Koehler <fkfire@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > The idea for client-side computation implies that we have highly-trusted
> > clients... (we know they won't provide invalid answers) Otherwise,
> > client-side computation requires verifying answers and so is only useful
> for
> > a few NP-ish problems. In addition (assuming trusted clients).
> >
> > Also, it means that, since computations can contain sensitive data, the
> > abillity to spread the computation is limited - unless we know the
> > computation is not user-sensitive, it can only try to use the user's
> > client(s). This way we also know that the client has no interest in
> > sabatoging answers to mess with other users (except to exploit
> server-side
> > weaknesses, which is inevitable).
> >
> > On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 10:28 PM, Scott Lawrence <bytbox@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Here is what, as I envision it, will make modred unique (and hard):
> >>
> >>  * Support for clients who can come and leave, lending CPU time and
> >> using CPU time as they choose.  There are some clusters that support
> >> this, but not very many.
> >>  * Support for computers participating across the internet.  This goes
> >> along with the previous part, but remember we need security to make
> >> this worth anything. This also means that user data could potentially
> >> be passed to untrusted computers - we need a way to prevent this.
> >>  * The ability for clients to run on any OS, using perl, python, java,
> >> or (on unix systems) C and C++ (servers and the hub will need to run
> >> on linux or at least another unix, or a dedicated OS which we may
> >> decide to write)
> >>  * Modred has great ease of use because it acts as a single unified
> >> computer - a special client program exists that allows one to log in,
> >> access and edit files, etc...  This is very close to unique - google
> >> has it, though
> >>
> >> Because of that last point, many OS design issues should come up when
> >> we code modred. (I think Freddy pointed this out?) Thus, we have a
> >> chance to fix flaws in standard unix, incorporating plan 9-type stuff
> >> (google it and read about it - Plan 9 from Bell Labs, the way the
> >> future of unix was) while also creating an actually usable user
> >> interface. (No offense, but to a newbie non-super-technical user,
> >> linux is a bit harsh...)
> >>
> >> Some implementation questions and ideas:
> >>
> >>  - how will updates be handled?  Remember we've got 200 computers
> >> potentially, some of which might be clients that want to participate
> >> in multiple clusters.
> >>
> >>  - maybe we should have programs not include front ends.  Instead, the
> >> modred software creates a front-end from the program's self
> >> description.  This would enforce a consistent user interface if we
> >> could implement it well
> >>
> >>  - how can we keep users from being able to snoop on each others' data?
> >>
> >> That's just a sample to get people thinking.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 12/26/09, David Tolnay <dtolnay@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >> > Before diving in to specifics about the implementation I think we need
> >> > to decide how we want modred to be different from (read: better than)
> >> > existing bootable cluster environments. Here is a short list to check
> >> > out:
> >> >
> >> > Bootable Cluster CD (http://bccd.net/) - folks presented this at SC09
> >> > in portland, it was pretty neat stuff. Packed with education /
> >> > debugging / visualization features
> >> >
> >> > Oscar (http://svn.oscar.openclustergroup.org/trac/oscar) - very
> >> > trivially simple way to transform an existing unix lab into a cluster
> >> > resource
> >> >
> >> > Lnx-bbc (http://www.lnx-bbc.com/) - includes cowsay!
> >> >
> >> > Perceus/warewulf (http://www.perceus.org/portal/) - a lot of other
> >> > sites made reference to this, haven't read too much about it
> >> >
> >> > What specifically do you want to improve over any of these?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 12/25/09, Frederic Koehler <fkfire@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> So, as far as I understand this project, the idea is to build
> >> >> both a client library and a program using the library to do
> clustering
> >> >> stuff, along with matching server/hub foo (the library might be the
> >> >> same
> >> >> or
> >> >> whatever, not important).
> >> >>
> >> >> So from this understanding, it seems that the system should provide
> >> >> some
> >> >> basic pseudo-operating system stuff and programs can build on that,
> >> >> just
> >> >> like they would normally build on their local libc/kernel and stuff.
> >> >>
> >> >> So (I sure like the word "so" today...) if we want the type of
> general
> >> >> os-like stuff it seems their needs to be support for:
> >> >>    * A simpe message passing model - abstract away all the TCP-foo,
> >>  maybe
> >> >> use existing foo here (obviously needs fleshing out)
> >> >>    * Permanent storage IO (clone the unix write(), read(), open() and
> >> >> sync()
> >> >> model,  or maybe just use one of the existing database-ish nosql
> things
> >> >> out
> >> >> there)
> >> >>            - Unix-ish model - you create your data hunk, say you want
> >> all
> >> >> this stuff in it, then after sync() we know it's actually somewhere
> >> >> written
> >> >> on a hard-drive, and other things can read it too
> >> >>            - Unless this isn't in fact needed (but I assume it is)
> >> >>            - Also need to figure out if it's filesystem-ish foo
> >> >> (hierarchial) we want or more relational database-ish stuff
> >> >>
> >> >>    * A task delegation model - some type of map/reduce-ish stuff
> >> >>           - Servers have a few built-in computations, and client
> >> utilizes
> >> >> them?
> >> >>           - Or more complex, servers run sandboxed computational
> code?
> >> >>    * A security system?
> >> >>         - Needs fleshing out
> >> >>         - Presumably what the "hub" manages - it's the trusted thing
> >> >>         - Obviously, not everybody is allowed to use the cluster for
> >> >> computation, not everybody can find out what everybody else is doing,
> >> etc.
> >> >>       - But also, is their a limit on storage, are some things
> >> prioritized
> >> >> over others, ?
> >> >>
> >> >> Theroretically, server's are written to provide the io backend and to
> >> >> allow
> >> >> for task delegation, clients use the api, although hub has it's work
> >> >> cut
> >> >> out
> >> >> delegating all the file io and figuring out what the state of that
> is.
> >> >>
> >> >> On top of some mixture of this, one could build a simple unix-ish
> >> >> pseudo-cli, theroretically, as well as real software.
> >> >>
> >> >> Anyway, before actually doing anything, people should read about PVM
> >> >> (Parallel Virtual Machine) and the like (maybe also Hadoop and other
> >> >> foo-ish
> >> >> stuff) so Modred isn't just a bad clone of it
> >> >>
> >> >> Anyway, (yes, twice in a row!), I figured _someone_ had to respond to
> >> >> Scott,
> >> >> otherwise he'd feel all lonely and sad :P Now he can have a warm
> fuzzy
> >> >> feeling of deep confusion and uncertainty instead :P
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 11:06 PM, Scott Lawrence <bytbox@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> wrote:
> >> >> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >> >> > From: Scott Lawrence <bytbox@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> > Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 19:20:13 -0500
> >> >> > Subject: Design Overview
> >> >> > To: modred <modred@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I'm going to assume that everyone understands the basic concepts
> for
> >> >> > modred: a set of networked computers (by 'networked' I mean,
> they're
> >> >> > all on the internet), divided for the sake of discussion into three
> >> >> > classes: the 'hub' (the dude in charge, who compupters who want to
> >> >> > join connect to), the 'servers' (dedicated computers that can be
> >> >> > pretty much relied on not to go down, although redundancy is always
> >> >> > nice), and the 'clients' (computers that send in requests and can
> be
> >> >> > used for spare CPU cycles.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Ok, so much for assumptions... :-)
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Things *I* think any design should emphasize:
> >> >> >  * security.
> >> >> >  * relative ease of use, while retaining significant power.
> >> >> > Challenging.  In particular, it should be possible to set up a
> modred
> >> >> > network in under an hour, provided the computers are already set
> up.
> >> >> >  * along with the previous bullet point, having an interface that
> >> >> > lets
> >> >> > one use the entire network like a single computer.  This is sort of
> >> >> > like the way google docs works, except the cloud is private
> >> >> >  * therefore, it should be a multi-user system with well-designed
> >> >> > privileges etc...
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I'm not going to discuss my implementation ideas, let's hear others
> >> >> > first.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > Scott Lawrence
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Webmaster
> >> >> > The Blair Robot Project
> >> >> > Montgomery Blair High School
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > Scott Lawrence
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Webmaster
> >> >> > The Blair Robot Project
> >> >> > Montgomery Blair High School
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~modred
> >> > Post to     : modred@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~modred
> >> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Scott Lawrence
> >>
> >> Webmaster
> >> The Blair Robot Project
> >> Montgomery Blair High School
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~modred
> >> Post to     : modred@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~modred
> >> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >>
> >
>
>
> --
> Scott Lawrence
>
> Webmaster
> The Blair Robot Project
> Montgomery Blair High School
>



-- 
Scott Lawrence

Webmaster
The Blair Robot Project
Montgomery Blair High School